The Overly Excited Podcast

This episode is brought to you by Swash Clothing and Sugar Life.

Welcome to the overly excited podcast hosted by Jack Watts and Dale

Sidebottom. 2 friends with a passion for life, learning and all

things that get them jumping out of their seats.

Alright, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. Episode number 28 of the

overly excited podcast. My name is Dal Sol. I'm doing my Jack Watts. How are

you, Jacko? Going very well, mate. Very excited for this. Now this is

1 now I'm probably going to offend our guest today, but Oh, don't

say that. He's like crazy. This bloke is crazy.

Now I've watched Paul obviously do a keynote. We're in,

Warrnambool about 3 or 4 weeks ago, and we both did a keynote to

about 250 primary school students, and I was sitting there

just in awe. Now we always start, Paul, by

introducing our guests as Paul Watkins. We always ask what gets you excited,

but, mate, you're an adventurer, you're a TEDx speaker, you're

global, but you are the one of the weirdest, craziest humans

I've ever ever experienced of your stories. The ultras you do

aren't ultras. Like 500 kilometers in the

Arctic Circle out there by yourself, negative 30 degrees. So I

don't I'm a bit scared to ask you what gets you excited, mate, because I

actually don't know where this will go. But Paul Watkins, welcome to the show.

What gets you excited, great man? Oh, thanks, mate. It's a it's a thing when

you do hard things, you recalibrate everything else in your life. Like, some days, I'll

get excited about like, I'll get excited, like, for a day like today, where I've

had a race in the weekend. So today, I don't have to train. All I

have to do is eat and recover and chill out. So I'm excited about the

fact that today, I actually have to do nothing at all. And that is

exactly the goal for the day. So sometimes it's like you you do the

hard things so that you can have the downtime, but really appreciate. Like,

you'd actually be present in the fact that I didn't sit on the couch. I

want Netflix because I'm, you know, lazy. I did it because I earned

the hours. I'm gonna put my bum on that couch and chill out. So sometimes

you you you're allowed to enjoy just you get excited about some of the

normal stuff because you've earned it. I think So what was

the race on the weekend, Paul? Tell us what you got up to. We're headed

up to Bright. So up in in Victoria, up to the high

country there, up to do the Buffalo Stampede. So they run the guys that run

it do an awesome event. They they run, like, a whole different bunch of distances

over the weekend. They've got, like, a kid's 5 k, a 10, a

20, a 100, and a 42. So I did the 100 because, you know,

I'm a tight ass. I wanna get maximum value for money, man. If I'm entering,

I'll so did the 100 k on set. So we kicked off at 6

AM on Saturday in the dark. The winners, the the

freaks who aren't even real people, they were finished by 5 or 6

o'clock. They finished about 7 o'clock that night. They did it about 11 or 12

hours. Noddy's like I was out there kicking around until 2 AM

in the morning, but, you know, you do what you do. So I got out

there and got the 100 k's done, had about 5 1,200

meters of going uphill and the same going downhill, all on dirt,

single track, fire roads, like, just back of the wilderness. Had a beautiful

country. Like, the weather was big. It was absolutely fantastic. Like, you're running

during the day. Yeah. You're sweating your brains out, but full sunshine

all day. Night, full moon, like, look beautiful. Yeah. The people are

awesome. The volunteers are awesome. I can't walk today really, but

small issue small issue. According to my watch according to my watch, I

I dropped 19 liters of sweat and burnt through 8,000 calories

in 20 hours. Wow. How do you get an how do you get enough

fuel? Like, you couldn't possibly get enough fuel into your body. No. You just

you just it's a discipline, actually. You just gotta remind yourself to keep shoveling stuff

in your face even though you don't want to shovel stuff in your face. I

actually I went through I think you had about a dozen gels.

I had 14 pouches of baby food, like the little squeezy pouches you get

in Coles. I went through 14 of those, couple of cheese toasties,

probably about my own body weight and Coke. Yeah. You know, a couple of oranges.

You just every check every check point, shove something in. Every 30 minutes, you put

something in your face because that's the discipline. You gotta eat. You gotta drink because

you're just chewing through it. So No. No. It's either that you're not gonna finish.

So if you wanna finish, well, you you've gotta do the right things. And that's

8, drink, and keep shoving 1 foot in front of the other and try not

to fall over too much. What's, what's the difference, Paul,

in turn, like, you know, I've just recently sort of got into a

bit of running mate. So, you know, we're talking 5 to 10. I've just got

up to a 20, but I'm running on these beautiful tracks,

you know, soft and lovely. And I've got the shoes on and, and it's, you

know, everything's sort of in my favor. What's the difference when you go

on a 5,000 meters of elevation on a dirt

track with rocks and shit in the way. And how how much does

that sort of impact the run? Yeah. An enormous amount. And it's

like every race is different. Like, that's my second 100 k race in

5 weeks. And a 100 k is not the same as a 100 k somewhere

else. Like, they're always totally different. So the trials are different.

So it's a different complexity, slightly different skill. Like, you've just got to

pay attention to where your feet are going. The pace is going to be different.

So you can't have expectations that are once around a 100 k at that time.

So I always run about that time. Every race is different. So you have to

accept that so that you can't have a set time. And you have to accept

that some days you're gonna be the hammer, and some days you're gonna be the

nail. And that's just how it's gonna work. Like, you you just deal with it.

The variety is good. And that's the challenge, you know. This this race in the

weekend, the biggest and the nastiest hill, which was 6 and a

bit kilometres straight up, came in the 88 kilometer mark.

I'm just trying to put a hill in. Like, you know, that's that's

that's not nice. It's just a little fucking scary.

It was, it really was. It was like, it was just a punch in the

gonads at the 8. I didn't need that at all, but you

copy. And like, it's just one of those things that you you get up and

you've been swearing and you, you know, you're sweating and you hate it and it's

horrible. And you get up and you look back and you see the line of

head torches going back down the hill and you think just I did that. Like

that was happened. Yeah. We got that. And then when you finish that, well, you're

only about 7 ks in the finish line. So you're like, oh, that was the

last hill. Like, that's it. It's all downhill from me. Like, literally, it's all downhill

from me. Oh, shit. We nearly got it done. So I like the

technicality of those trials. I like that trial running, it's not

about speed as such. It really is a whole mix of stuff. It's not

about just, are you the fastest Kenyan here? It's like, well, no. Just

can you can you just grind it out? I'm a middle of the pack, bro,

all the time for these races. It's just can you grind it out? And when

it's dark, and it's cold, and you're exhausted, and you're alone for

hours, like, that's that's tough. So can can you stick it out?

Can you keep going? Because Yep. It's easy just to hit the giving up button

and go it's like, I I got to one of the checkpoints and was chatting

to the medics late at night, like about midnight. I'm like, oh, how's your day

been? I hope no one's been injured too much. She said, no, we've got the

usuals, this, that, you know, sprains and nausea. He said, the last checkpoint a bloke

came up and said, oh, I've got to pull out. He said, why? He said,

I'm just not interested in it anymore. Like, I've just said enough.

He said he said, wait. You're on your own that long. It's it gets hard.

Like, you just you start questioning. Even I do it. I've done it for years,

and you still get to that point that Royce going, shit. Why are we doing

this? Why am I doing this? No one's making like, this isn't compulsory. It looks

like you signed up. You don't have to do it. You probably paid anything. You

paid to do it. Yeah. Handed over cash for this. It's like you you you

kind of review back. You don't have to do it, but there is a reason

why you do it. And often you don't forget that full delivery of that reason

till it's done. Until afterwards. Yeah. That's that's why we did it.

Yeah. That's why I did it. Righty. Cool. And I think with that so, obviously,

we're talking about a 100 k race. So the keynote and the main story yeah.

Obviously, a lot of stories I wanna dive into, Paul. But the main thing you

spoke about, I couldn't imagine 10 days on my own in the

Arctic Circle at negative 30 degrees. You're doing an

ultra 500 kilometers in the snow

all by yourself where you have to carry everything in a sled. Mate, can you

tell us a little bit about this because there's doing an ultra 100 k's

uphills in Bright in Victoria. There's traveling to the Arctic Circle

in just ridiculous conditions that are dangerous, like

and you're out there by yourself. You're sleeping on your sled. Mate, talk

about demons going through your head. What how did you get to

the stage to think I'm going to go and not only just compete, but

nearly win. And I know you've won multiple ones over there. Like, that's different than

running around Warrnambool where you are, like, in lovely near the beach, mate. Buddy,

30 negative 30 snow. Like, can you just give me an

idea? Because we had a little chat about it, but I'm still fascinated. How do

you get into that, and how do you get good at it? I don't know

whether you go well alone at all, darling. You strike me as someone who just

needs people around you all the time. I don't know whether I does people or

not. The same, and that's why you gave me anxiety telling me that story where

you just I was like, I struggled 20 minutes by myself. I'm

I'm looking around for someone, let alone 10 days in the snow. Was like, what

do you mean no people? No no people at all. Like, no no people. No

headphones. No. No one. Yep. There's just you and your crazy

roommate and your head, mate. Mate. People often say, like, how

how how insane do you have to be to do it? I'm like, you only

have to have the insanity that it takes to do a 5 k. I like

listening to Jack before saying, oh, I've done a 5, and then you did a

10, and then you did a 25. And if you stay curious and

you start to really find some kind of growth and personal development, you

do a 5, then you then you might do a marathon, and then you might

do an ultra, you might do 50, and then you just look at what your

skill set is and where it goes from there. So for me, like, my skill

set was well, my background was high altitude mountaineering. Like, I only got

into running because I was sick and tired of being sick and tired. Like, I'm

a nerd. Like, I'm not an athlete. But I was just sick and tired of

being sick and tired. So I got into running and then kind of got into

what's next and what's next, and then got into did a little trek in

Nepal. And then that was really amazing. And then I did a really basic mountain

climb in Nepal, and then that just what's next? What can I do? Can I

do that? I don't know. How do you find out? Well, you just go try

it and see what happens. And then just kinda iterated my way up until I

was doing really, really big mountains across the world. And

there's a point in that career where you start to push the envelope a lot.

Like, I'd gone from doing, you know, just basic tricks to,

I'm on a mountainside in Alaska, and I'm watching helicopters long line bodies off.

Like, it's it's not going well out here. And then you realize that as a

young man, you push your chips in and go all in all the time. But

when you get married and you have kids, well, you're wearing multiple hats now. You're

gonna kind of adjust. So I kinda looked at and said, well, what's my skill

set here? Well, I'm good at long distance, and I'm really good in cold weather,

and I know how to drag heavy things or carry heavy packs for like months

at a time. Is there some place I could use that? And then I

found Arctic Ultras. I'm like, oh, can you go long distance in the cold

and carry heavy shit? I can do that. So I just

went, how will this go? And it went terribly, like, really badly.

I dnf at the halfway mark. Like, it was an absolutely horrendous

experience. But do you come home and you go, what happened? Well,

I managed 250 k's in the snow. So, like, well, what did you

learn? Oh, heaps. I I learned what not to do. Like, I

learned every mistake in the book. So you go, well, if you did it

completely wrong the first time, you know how to do it perfectly. Just do the

opposite of everything you did the first time. You should do it really, really

well. And so I went back and did that particular race in the Canadian

Arctic 2 years later and won it. That was a 614 kilometre.

Similar style thing. Drag your sled, solo, just you and what you

brought. And I won it and went, bro, I didn't expect that to come out

like that. And it did. And then you go, well, did I get lucky? Like,

because I like Stephen Badbury and everyone just fell over and I just scooted through.

Or was it actually good? Like, do I have a skill set? Did I figure

it out? So that led me to go to Sweden, which was the the race

I was talking about with Dale in Warrnambool. So I went to that race with

the goal of trying to win it going well, if I take that skills and

what I learned, have I got a repeatable thing? Can I go

use all that knowledge? Was I just lucky? Or do I

actually have a process and a system that allows me to go and tackle these

things and still get the experience of, you know, dragging the sled in the snow

under the northern lights and, you know, crazy parts of the world? And that led

me to do that race. So, yeah, you you start small, and

you go, can I do that? I don't know. How do you find out? Well,

you go do it. And sometimes it worked, and sometimes it doesn't. But you always

learn. You never you never do it and get nothing out of the experience. You

always get something. Even if you don't get the outcome you thought, you you get

knowledge and you get experience, and you usually get a really good story to tell.

Yeah. So you do a 5 and you do a 10, and the next thing

you know, you're doing 600 k's in the Arctic. No. You're not.

Easy as that. Fantastic. No. I'm not doing that.

I've found Paul, like for me, you know, coming from a

football background, you know, you sort of like high

pressure and it's like, you've got to perform and you've got to, you've got

to be quick and you've got to run good times. And, and so I

hated running. Like I hated it with a passion. Like it was, and

I can remember, you know, like a lot of my mates, they, they're seeing me

now doing these runs and they're going, what the fuck, who, what have they done

with? What's he like? Because I said, I can remember

telling him I'm not going to run 1 kilometer when I finished playing for you.

I'm never running again. But I feel like

once I sort of got this thing started and it was like, I

just, once I got rid of the ego or like once I got rid of

that whole, you know, I've gotta be quick and, if I put this up

on Instagram or Strava or whatever, and it's not a quick time,

That's embarrassing. So once I, once I just let that go

completely, I suddenly started enjoying it. And then all of a sudden when you

enjoy it, you actually can get some results. Is

that I, I feel like with ultra, like, you know, big time

endurance, it's, it's not really about that. I mean,

obviously at the top end, yes. You're trying to win the quickest time. But

I feel like even those top guys, like initially it's

it's like, you've just got to get it done or it's that mental,

you know, of actually just competing and finishing. Have you, have you found that

with your journey at all? Or, Yeah. It's a really good observation because

it's a really different thing. If you go out and run a 10 k time

trial versus I'm just gonna go run out 10 k's with the kids or the

dog or whatever, They're completely different experiences, and they're

a different mindset and everything. And even for the guys who are going out to

win some of these big ultras, their entire experience that day is

gonna be different to mine. Because they're getting into checkpoints and the clock's on, and

they gotta grab this, grab that, do that. I can't stop here. I've gotta be

moving there. Like, they're having a very different experience. So it really is

about what are you looking to gain out of that. Yeah. And once you kind

of let go of some of that ego, like you said, oh, I can't post

it if it's a crap time or it wasn't a good run or you're putting

yourself under the pump to go, I've gotta perform, gotta perform. Sometimes you

miss a lot of the point of what you do. Like, I always joke with

people going, you know, oh, you don't have to cold plunge and journal every day

and meditate and all that kind of stuff. And I was going, I don't journal.

But then I probably do. I just do it out in the trail. Like, some

people journal with a pad and a pen. I just do it with a pair

of runners and some oxygen and sunlight. Like, that's my time to go and

decompress mentally. So you find the tool that works for

you. And if you're always putting yourself under the pump to perform

on a run, for example, you never get that time to decompress. Whereas, like you

said, you go and go, I think I'm gonna leave the watch at home. I

don't care what happens. I'm just gonna go for a run, get some sun, the

dog will come along or whatever, and it's a very different experience.

And then you start to go, oh, that's why you do it. Because long

term, 90% of your running isn't gonna be about winning or set in the

PR. It's gonna gonna be just time out in nature and fresh air and,

you know, you've cracked it with the kids and you just wanna get out of

the house for a bit or whatever it is. It's gonna be a vehicle for

you, not about what I'm gonna put on the grams or what time I got

or anything like that. And once you realize that and you go, oh, shit. I

can enjoy this. Like, it it's totally okay to go out and just not find

it in, but just go out and be present and enjoy it and see what

happens. It becomes a it's a big unlock. It's a totally different world for you

then. I think, like, I just yeah. It took me so long

to to understand that and like to actually believe it and,

you know, because, yeah, basically, even when I was just trying to go for a

jog or something, you know, 3 ks's or whatever, it's like I was treating

it like a time trial. Like it was literally I couldn't get out of that

mentality of not. And then I'll just I'd go out hard, and then I'd

be fucked for the in 5 minutes. And then I'm holding on for the

last 25 join us. Hiding it. And then I'd go home and

go, why am I no good at running? You know, why can't I run 3

or 4? And then once you start enjoying it and you just do it, then

all of a sudden now I've got a bit, bit of like, I guess behind

me that I can go out and do, I could do the time trial and

actually, you know, see where I'm at or whatever. But I sort of feel like

you need to get that base first before you go out and try and, you

know Yeah. And it's gonna be tough in your gig where you've come from a

performance background. So everything's measured. Everything is a test. Everything is how

fast, how quick, what's a skill, that kind of stuff. Yeah. Where I would say

there's probably a really good argument to go that when you look at the greatest

footy players, they have that base of discipline and the skill and

they do the time trial and they're accurate and all those kind of things. But

the very best probably had a deep love for it anyway. Like, if they could

go out and just live and love the moment in the game, they

had all the skill underneath. But if you've just got the

skill, and it's just about performance, performance, performance, you don't have the love for

it. You're never gonna get that elevation to that level for the guys that

are just they would just go out and play with it. They had done the

training off because they just wanted to be out there and have the experience. Yep.

Then you have that layer underneath, and you you can't stop those blokes. That's so,

so brilliant like anything. Yeah. This isn't it. But, like, if you don't

sometimes, you know, you probably treated it like a job. Mhmm. You know? Whereas

others just would do anything like them. We had a few other players on and

the different sort of that they spoke about compared to, you know, like they love

training and they loved all aspects. Yeah. Just, and anything in

life, like your job or your family law or whatever, if you're enjoying it and

you love it and you're, you're going to be so much better at it. Yeah.

You're going to go that extra mile. You're going to, and as soon as you

don't love it, like it's just, it sort of permeates through anything in your

life. It's just, you gotta find those, the passions and the loves

that you enjoy. And there's a perspective thing too. Like I often joke with people

saying that when you have those pity party moments in the middle of a race,

and you feel like absolute crap, and you hate it, and you wonder why I'm

here, blah blah blah. Then occasionally, I've been at that point, and you think about

all the people who would go, shit, what I'd give to have 2 legs at

work and let me run? Like, all lungs at work well enough. What I give

to be able to physically go and do that? And you're like, I'm like, I'm

in a body like you know? No. I'm not an athlete, but everything works.

So how could you waste that? Like, how how disrespectful are the people who would

who would swap your spot in a heartbeat? Yeah. Mate, you're out here running under

the stars or the northern lights or whatever it is Yeah. Or, you know, in

front of a pack g. Like, how good is that? Like, how how could you

disrespect that opportunity? You've gotta go and use it. Otherwise, mate, give it

to someone else. Yes, man. What you doing? That's great. That's that's empathy, though, isn't

it? Exactly what you just said. You know, like, valuing what you've

got, because we are very fortunate. Even though Yeah. When you're

pushing your body to that limit and you may not feel it, you still got

a lot of things that so many people would desire. Mhmm. And I suppose that

narrative you tell yourself, and I'm sure the stories you've told yourself over

the time when you sit out there by yourself, demons galore. I know Jack is

It's a crazy room up there. You would have so many demons in that head

of yours. Someone asked me that. They said, how

do you get through it? And I I explained it like you when you

go out to do a 100 k or a 100 mile or a super long

run, like, you have to go at the start and know that there'll be a

point where you wanna quit. There's gonna be a point where you hate everyone and

yourself and the world and the tree and everything.

And the keys to go one tree. Oh, mate. If you do,

you just you hate the rock with the thing you took over and the stick

and, like, oh, everything. It's like you've got to accept that that point is

coming. And when it turns up, rather than letting yourself sink into

the story, you've almost got a third person that you go, oh, remember at the

start when you said you'd reached this point? Here's the point. We've we've

reached that point, and now we're just gonna you you're allowed to be shitty. That's

okay. But you just have to keep putting one foot in front of the other

while you're being shitty about it. That's okay. And eventually, eat

something, drink something, swear at a few things, kick a few things. And then a

k or 2 down the road, you're like, oh, it's still going. And so I

haven't died. Like, it's not that bad. Alright. Whatever. And you start to work through

it. It's about not letting yourself sink into that

story of I can't do it, and it's too hard and everything hurts. And you're

like, well, get that. That's why you're here. Like, you knew it was gonna hurt.

You knew it would be hard. And you knew you'd wanna quit. And this is

the point where you quit, which is normally about 2 thirds of the way through.

I was running in the weekend and caught up to this lady, and she's like,

can I ask you a question? Have you done many of these? I'm like, yeah.

I've done a few. She's like, I feel really bad. Like, I feel nauseous, and

and I feel I just don't feel good and I'm not enjoying it. I don't

know why like, is this normal? Like, we're about 70 k's in. Yeah. It's about

spot on. I'm like, you are exactly where you're meant to be. So I said,

if you feel like shit and you feel kinda sick and you kinda hate it

and you're not sure what you're doing, yeah, you're spot on. You're bang on the

rock. That's where you're meant to be. Yep. You're exactly where you meant to be

at this point in the race. And for her, she just needed to hear that.

She went, oh, okay. And then boom. Off she went. And,

like, she she finished, you know, through the next 30 k's and and absolutely

now that I'm like, sometimes you have to go, yeah. It's gonna be hard. That's

okay. Yeah. That's kind of the point. So work through that and kick crazy.

It's almost that mental game is as much of a

skill as, you know, having good legs and a good body underneath you, like being

able to, you know, and we speak about it a lot like perspective and,

but it's, it's actually, it's really difficult just to have that, like that

doesn't come naturally to a lot of people. And I think like when you said,

you know, so many people would, you know, love to be out in the G

or love to be out under the Northern lights and it's

yes, they would in that moment. But also when, when

you're doing it tough and when you're having a shit time, you know, you're

not enjoying yourself. Yeah. Everyone's laying into you or you're

having a tough time and this, you know, 2 thirds of the way through this

run, it's fucking hard to tell yourself that in that

moment. Yeah. It is. The best way to do that is you've got

to earn the ability to tell yourself that. So, like, going back to the races

I talked about with Dale, like, we would operate 247 in those

races. So we'd race for 8 days, 9 days at a time, day and night.

There's no stopping. So I spent the best part of

the year doing all my training at night because night's at the heart. It's like

when it's when you're alone and it's dark and it's minus 40

and all you can see is what your head towards will light up, and you've

been you haven't spoken to a human being for, like, 4 days, like,

it's real hard. So are you just I would do the training at night at

home because then when the night's turned up on race day, you're like, this

is my happy place, bro. Like, I've spent the year. Like, we're ready to go.

So you've gotta it's a skill. It's like any skill. Like, how do you get

better at kicking the footy? You keep kicking footies. And, like, how do you get

better at having really hard, uncomfortable conversations with yourself? You put

yourself in a position where you keep having harder uncomfortable conversations

with yourself. Like, you put the kids to bed and you chat to your wife

and it's 9 PM, and now you put the shoes on, and now you go

out. And you go, you know, I'll see you in a couple hours. That's you

just do that over and over and over until your body goes, oh, we're

the kind of person that does these things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that when

it turns up, you're not surprised. You're kinda like, oh, yeah. We we do these

things, and we we have these conversations, and we work through them, and we keep

going. So that you you have to earn the right to be able to

have that conversation in your head and win that conversation every time. And it gets

no easy. I've done this for decades, and I still have those conversations in my

head every race. This is shit. Why am I here? You're an idiot. Everyone hurts.

Can we go? It sounds like a mental existence, really. Oh, it sounds like a

problem. Like like I said, it's just I it's run or go to therapy.

So then it go from. So it's like, they they your options, and that's what

you're doing. But Paul, with with that though, mate, like, what you're talking about,

like, everybody in the world knows the things they need to do

to push themselves, step outside their comfort zone, eat healthy, move your

body, you know, build better relationships with themselves and others, but they're

not easy. And what you're saying isn't easy. Like, when you people say, yes,

it's easy for you, what do you say back to them? Because it's still not

easy for you, but how do you get that discipline and that belief to put

the work in because you know, eventually, it pays off

when you're out there 4 days and you're in the middle of nowhere by yourself.

Like, I know people aren't putting themselves in that situation, but they need to have

Yeah. They need to have the respect for themselves that if a situation in their

life turns up, they've put the hard guards in and done the work so that

they are resilient for whatever situation. But we know how to do it, but it's

not easy. How do you tell people how do you tell people that? There's

kind of 2 things. The first thing is to put it in context. Everyone thinks

that to be disciplined and hard, like, you've gotta be David Goggins or you're gonna

be Jocko. We've gotta be, like, you know, full on capital

d discipline all the time. So we don't. Like, that's that's

Instagram stuff. Don't worry about that. So what I do is I do 2 things.

Either you have a very, very uncomfortable

examples of that is I tell a story in some of my keynotes, which

doesn't win me any friends, but we have that story of you're at your mate's

place, you're having a barbecue, you're sitting in your chair, kids are playing, it's

all great, And your kid kicks a footy on the road, and your 3

year old's bolting down the driveway to get the footy off the road. And the

guy coming down the road in the car's on his phone. So that

moment about whether you can get out of your chair and get down the driveway

and get your kid in time, that is the payment. That's the bill

coming due for all the decisions you made in the last 10 years about taking

care of yourself. And that bill is due now, and someone's gonna pay it.

And that that gets you dead silence in the room. It's a case of going,

well, whether you like it or not, at some point in your life, they're gonna

go bills due. Who's paying? And you have to be

going, could I get up and get out of my chair from a dead start

and get down the driver and get to my kid before he gets to the

road or not? And that's a compound of the million

decisions you made in the last 10 years. The other conversation, which is

slightly easier to have, is you make the choice so tiny that you can't not

do it. You say to people, I I'm not disciplined. I can't get up. I

hit the snooze button 6 times. I can't do it. Okay. Tomorrow, I want you

to set your alarm 1 minute before you need to get up. 1

minute. And as soon as it goes off, get up. It's 1 minute. Now if

you can't get up 1 minute earlier, we have far deeper problems to deal

with. But do 1 minute. And then tomorrow, do 1 minute

earlier, and you just hit the alarm get straight up. It's only 1 minute. You

like, surely, you can do that and do that for 30 days.

Now you're getting up 30 minutes earlier than you used to. You've got half an

hour a day. It's 3 and a half hours a week you didn't have that

you'd now have. And you can do whatever you like with them. You don't have

to go for a run. Make a cuppa and sit outside with the dog and

watch the sun come up. That'll do a ton of good anyway. Like, you don't

have to go out and, you know, David Goggins it. Just get up and

have a cup or whatever it is. But now you've got 3 and a half

hours extra a week. You're getting up half an hour earlier than you used to,

and it only took 1 minute at a time. That thing of going, just make

it so small that you can't not do it. And now you're starting to become

the kind of person who gets up when the alarm goes off. You're starting to

become the kind of person that does the thing that needs to be done when

it needs to be done. And once you break that barrier, it becomes a lot

easier to do the next thing, which might be I'm gonna go for a walk

every morning in my half hour or whatever it is. And now you just start

to compound. And next thing you know, you look back a year later, and you're

like, holy shit. I've become the kind of person that gets up an hour early

and takes a dog for a walk every morning, watches the sunrise, and I feel

great. And you'll never look back ever again.

Just make it tiny. So they can't say no. It's impossible to avoid. I

guess it's just hard. Like it's easy to say

that, but it's it's habits. Isn't it? And when someone, if someone has

been that person that hasn't been able to do that their whole life, probably

even committing to, you know, a 30 days of going 1 minute earlier,

like that is going to be really hard for them because other things will pop

up and then, ah, it's too hard and, and we'll, we'll give up, you know?

So it's, I guess then you can start layering all those other tools of

going. Do you have some friends who'll keep your account? Have you got a partner

who's gonna pick you when you gotta get up out of bed or yell at

you or whatever you do? You just start start setting some accountability

things around you. Put the calendar up, and you're gonna cross it off. You know?

Just those psychological aspects of you don't wanna have a

day on the calendar, excuse me, where you didn't cross it off and you didn't

hit it. Like, just start putting some of those barriers in the way.

Excuse me. So that you've got a few

backups to just support you into getting that done. Yeah.

And then you can start to like, we talked about the stories you tell yourself

when you're in the middle of the run. It's all shit. The flip side of

that's true as well, and I do this exercise. We do this workshop with groups.

What's a chapter in your life you haven't written yet that you really wanna write?

What's the title? What's it look like? Who's in it? Who are the mentors?

What were the roadblocks? How did you get there? And people write fascinating stuff. Oh,

I wanna go do this someday with my kids, or I wanna start this or

whatever it is. Okay. Well, let's what's the title of that? And let's start

putting some color and shape to it and start putting it in there. And you

start helping and put, you know, a flag in the ground somewhere in the future

and go, well, if you want that, that's not gonna magic itself into your life.

So if you want it, what are what are the steps look like? Let's break

it down, and then let's go from there. So you can take the reverse of

that horror story of, you know, you never took care of yourself and and that

had a poor outcome versus you wanted something. So if you

want that, you have to become the person or the kind of

person who has that. And what does that person look like? Well, they're disciplined. They

do this and they do that, and they've done this research and whatever it is,

then you need to become that person. But when it comes back to,

I think like what we were speaking about before as well is like, you've got

to try and enjoy that process somehow. Like if

you, you know, if it's a grind and you're hating every day of

it, and yes, we're not going to enjoy everything we do and yes, things are,

you know, some things are hard. I get that. But if you've got a bit

of motivation to, you know, whatever it might be, like, you know,

as you said, like the, crossing them off each day,

that satisfaction of, you know, I'm achieving something and now I've got a bit of

a run going. Like I, I know personally, like when, I try and stop drinking

or whatever for a while, like those first two weeks,

almost impossible and you go, I'd literally just have to

lock myself in a room pretty much. But then once you get through, you know,

you get through the 2, 3 weeks.

I'm just shaking. We're trying to draw out. Yeah.

But, like, you know, just the the opportunities. And then once you get

through that, it's, you've got a bit of a run going and then you're actually

enjoying it and then you're feeling good and then you get that momentum. It's

just that, you know, getting started is, is the hard part. So if you can

sort of try to, I don't know, try to

find some enjoyment or something to look forward to with it makes it a lot

easier, I think. Or do it again. Tell yourself a story about who you wanna

be or remind yourself of the story of how you felt when you were

that person. Like you said, I didn't drink for a couple of weeks, and I

got back into running. And I felt good, and I I didn't snap at the

kids or my partner or work was a bit easier. I felt a bit better

when I woke up in the morning. Just remind yourself of that guy and go,

heck, oh, that was pretty good. Like, okay. Well, what are we doing? Let's let's

get back to the that was good. Why why would why would you do things

that push you further away from the person you wanna be? Like, that makes no

sense at all, does it? So Okay. Doesn't. Why not do the things that put

your point where you're going, I felt really good when I did

this, didn't do that, whatever it is. What are you doing? Like Yeah.

That's that's that's when you felt good. That's the kind of the point of being

here. You wanna feel good. Yeah. Those things. We can we know we know what

to do. We do know what to do. Yeah. You know what to do. I'm

like and I'm not saying you gotta become a monk. Like, I enjoy being like

the next bloke. Like, I often said, don't be the guy at the barbecue party

with your mates who's having a bottle of water and a kale shake in the

corner being sad. Like, have a beer with your mother.

But part of it is you you gotta live your life. Like, I'm not saying

you have to get up at 5:30 every morning and be sad and run and

all that kind of stuff. But you have to have a mix of some of

those things. And sometimes you wanna sit down with your mates and have a beer

and have a chat because that's really healthy for you. But know that that's a

part of what you do. That's not what you always do. When it

becomes, I have a beer with my mates. We do that 3 or 4 nights

a week, and we hit, you know, stack of cans in the weekend. Well, that's

not something you do that's part of you. That's who you are, and that's gonna

have consequences. And that's your choice. But, you know, don't you don't have

to go full tilt all one way or full tilt all the other way. You

need to have a mix of those kind of things. I said to people, you

wanna have chapters. No chapter is the whole story. They're just they're they're

slices and you stack it up. And the whole point of the exercise is that

one day, you're gonna hopefully be very, very old and about to cock it, and

you go, shit. I wrote a really good story. Look at all the chapters

versus, oh, I did one it I had 1 or 2 chapters, and that was

just what I did, and I didn't didn't think about stacking them all. Like, you

don't finish the story till the end. So don't wait till the end to start

writing it. Mhmm. And Start checking. Start stacking them now. Now and I think

that too as well that chapters are there to learn from. Don't be don't

they're not all negative even if they're you're not as proud of them. You know?

Often, you'll dwell on those and that'll affect the next few chapters. But

like you said, it's like a run or a race or anything. Don't let them

define you. I think that's something we really we get caught up on

because it is easy to that pity party or focus on the negatives

instead of thinking, right, no, that's an opportunity to grow and move on.

I love that idea of chapters finish, chapters start. Like, don't just

make it one big verse. Yeah. Exactly. That's it. And you think

when you read a book, like, if you read a book, you know, Dale got

up today and Dale had a great day and that was it. End of story.

Like, shit story. But if you have the Dale got up today and here's the

following 8 things that went wrong and then this happened and that, Like, all the

best stories you tell are the ones where it was hard. No one ever just

sits around going, best day, everything went perfectly. It's gold. Absolutely

mint. Everything dialed in fantastic. Everyone's bored. But you go,

mate, went and did this. It was terrible. Like, the boss yelled at me or,

you know, this happened at school with the kids or when did this rise.

Whatever it is, they're the stories that make you who you are. They're the ones

that were difficult, even if you didn't overcome them. I mean, they're great when they

have a great evening, but sometimes they don't. But that's still the story that you

tell about, this is the time that was really hard. How about let me tell

you about this when this happened. Because that's interesting. Like, that that

makes you a fascinating person, and that makes you feel interested in your own story

of going I went and did stuff, and this is what happened. And some of

it worked and some of it didn't, but that's the that's the whole point. Go

ahead and do stuff and build that story. Kristen Gibson

came on this, podcast. One of her favorite sayings is there's no rainbow

without the rain. Oh. So, you know, there you go. There

you go. You can't just sure that I like. Paul's very good at quotes. You're

a quote, man. I do. I'm a good quote. What's your favorite quote? Like, because

I think everyone should have one. What no. You can't say I don't have

one. What's your favorite quote? No. You can't. I can say I don't have one

and mute the mic. What are you gonna do? Come in here and beat me

up. I'll do it all later. On the spot there. No.

No. I look. I I change all the time because I use a lot of

quotes and my my talks and those kind of things, and I do a thing

where I put a quote out every day on LinkedIn for people to kinda have

a think about, we chat about it, and those kind of things. I think it

really is about learning. And and, look, I do close most of my keynotes out

with that quote from Talib that, you know, wind will extinguish a candle, but

it'll energize a fire. So you wanna be the fire, and you wanna wish

for the wind. The point being that life is hard.

Like, it's a hard gig. It's just it's a tough road. So you wanna be

the person who goes, I know tough times are coming, and they're gonna they're gonna

light my fire versus we're gonna get snuffed out. Because the hard

stuff is coming regardless. So you might as well be the guy that wins when

that happens versus the guy that just gets blown away. And I like it

because it that really sets your whole mentality of you're

not worried about, will it be hard? It's gonna be hard. It's gonna be hard.

It's gonna be hard. So what am I gonna do about it? It's the story

you're telling yourself? Yeah. Yeah. That internal dialogue

that, you know, you can work on as a person, you can work on

that daily. Can't you? You know, like my dad just

constantly was always, you know, look at the positives. What positives can we find out

of this? Like, you know, and that's sort of, I guess, like has obviously

come through my whole life. It's like, yeah, this, I've had a lot of shit

go on. We all have. But, you know, I feel like I've been able to

try to keep it you know, pretty positive and and try and get

a good outcome out of it. Yeah. It resets that perspective.

Like, Donna, I talk to school kids all the time. I go do a lot

of work with year 12, year 11, and year 12 kids. And the very first

thing I say to them is, you are gonna fail. You're gonna screw it up

over and over again. And about 6 minutes after you get your ATA

ATR score, no one's gonna give a shit about it. Like but guess what?

You're gonna be completely okay. You're gonna get it wrong. You're gonna screw up. You're

gonna fail. You're gonna have the wrong career. You're gonna make all these bad choices.

Welcome to the human race. Like, that's it. That's that's how it works. You're gonna

you're gonna be okay. So start accepting that

failure is all part of the process. So rather than running

around going, oh, I don't wanna screw up. I don't wanna make a poor choice.

I don't wanna regret this. Except that you're gonna do all of those things, and

just start making the best choice you can and make the best of what you've

got. And when you do screw it up, which you will go,

okay. What did I learn? What do I get out of this? Where do I

go now? Who do I need to go say sorry to? And then keep moving

forward. And then it'll away you go. The kids are terrified these days that they're

gonna make the wrong choice. Yeah. I know they are. And I think, like you

just said, your endoscope doesn't define you. And I I I think when I

heard you talk, I was fascinated by so much of it, and we resonate on

so many different levels. Both bit crazy in certain aspects of our life.

But the best thing I heard you say was your job title does

not define you. And I this has stuck with me

because so many situations, you know, the first thing someone will lead with

is, oh, so when you meet him, what do you do? You know? And and

it's so true. And I'm like, my, oldest has just started kindergarten.

So I'm meeting all these new parents and, yeah, what do you do?

And I've changed it up a bit and it sort of confuses people like what

you did. You know, like, you're a pharmacist, you're forklift driver, you're explorer, you're a

keynote speaker. It's so funny how we

judge somebody by what they do, like, but and the best

quote, I love this what you said that you're not your noun, you're a verb.

Do you wanna describe that a little bit more to people? Because I found that

fascinating and, I just think people don't realize when they're asking

that question that it's a really horrible way to start because there's

nowhere to go from it really. Like, it's gotta be something better. You gotta say

it's something better. Yeah. And it becomes a trap. Like,

the the whole school thing of, you know, you're gonna screw up, and the

ATR doesn't define you. As an adult, the adult equivalent is you're not the words

on your business card. So we talk about it works both ways. Some are

pharmacists. So if I tell people I'm a pharmacist, you can see the wheels turn

and they go, degree, money, this, that, we talk about politics,

whatever, that kind of stuff. And I tell people I'm a forklift driver, and you

get the reverse. Probably doesn't have a degree, probably earn this kind of money, we'd

probably talk about this kind of stuff, yadayada. I'm still the same person. All I

did was tell them what the words of my business card were, and they used

that to make a whole bunch of assumptions about my entire life.

The really dangerous thing is when you do that to yourself. So you go, oh,

I'd love to go do this, that, run this, have that, be that

person, whatever, But I can't because I'm just an accountant or a

lawyer or I'm a stay at home mom or whatever it is. You just start

telling yourself some b s story based on the words you're on your business card.

When you go out on a run or you go climb a mountain, the mountain

doesn't give a shit what your business card says or how much you earn or

where you are in the org chart. It's just did you do the work to

earn the right to attempt to do this? That's all it cares about. So we

take the the thing of going if you live your life as a noun, I'm

just a pharmacist, I'm just a mum. I'm just a dad. Whatever.

You box yourself in. And you're a noun. You're just a collect you're a

title, and that's all you are. Versus if you throw that thing away and you're

a human being, I do a heap of stuff. I do all kinds of stuff.

People ask me what do I do, and I'm like, sit down. I've I've got

a 30 page powerpoint presentation. You get to the car park at the school,

and I'm running you through it. Or I just I work for the government. We

can't talk about it. Like, you just you tell them whatever you like. It doesn't

matter. Like, it's just I'm pretty sure that most of the parents at my kid's

school think I'm some kind of weird mystery guy because they're like, I I hear

he does this. Oh, I heard he does that. Oh, I heard he does that.

Like, they're all truths. There's, like, they're different stories all over the place. But I

like that because it means you're a human being and you do lots of interesting

stuff. And then the gates open. The map's as big as you like versus going,

oh, I'd love to go to the Kokoda track, but I couldn't because I'm just

I'm a I'm a dad. I'm a I'm a pharmacist. Like, you know, I'm a

nerd. Like, we don't do those kind of things. Oh, shit. Anyone can do anything

they want. Like, I've done it twice. Like, you can do whatever you like. Just

put your business card in the shredder and go, who am I? I'm Paul Watkins.

What do you wanna do? I wanna do that, but go do it. And it

might work or it might not. Live your life as a verb, someone who does

stuff versus I'm a lawyer, and I've got Vibraphop. Mhmm.

This is Vibraphop. Hey, Paul. Paul, I'm, it's funny you

say you've done Kokoda twice because me and a couple of mates, we're looking at

trying to get, September, October this year. We just spoke about

it 2 nights ago, actually. And we said, I might put it up on

my Instagram and try and find someone to sort of, you know, because we got

no idea. Where do we go? Where do we look? Do we do it with

a tour guide? Do we do it? Do we try and race through it? Do

we so you've obviously done it twice. Tell me a bit about it. They're

both different too, weren't they? Yeah. They're both different. This is I've heard this

story and it's it's I think it's a great lesson here as well. Yeah. Sorry.

We'll go. So first of all, why do you wanna go?

Well, I guess probably we're at the stage now where we're sick of going

overseas on a holiday and spend a whole lot of cash and just getting smashed

the whole time and coming back and not remembering much of it and feeling

worse than when we left. So, there's, like, a reasonable boy

choice. Yeah. Trying to stop there. Yeah. But I think,

you know, also just, you know, the history interests me a fair bit.

And probably like, as we speak about, we've spoken about on this pod, like perspective,

you know, I've I love, like, trying to put myself back in people's shoes, you

know, like the, you know, our Anzac's back back then, like what

they actually went through and you know, the shit that we complain

about these days and these guys are off there 17, 18, whatever

they were, you know, going to war and in these horrible conditions.

And, you know, it gives, it gives you a good sort of understanding

and perspective and appreciation for what we've got now. So that's probably

a a couple of reasons. Yeah. That's it gives you an idea of what like,

are you going there because you wanna go for a fitness boot camp? You're gonna

try and run the thing, which you can do. There's a marathon. But you're

going for a reason you wanna learn, which I think is really good. So I

would go with a tour company. Mhmm. I've been with spirit twice. They're

great. Get someone who has some historical knowledge. Yeah. And they will get

to points to go, hey. Imagine sitting here, and they're shooting

from me over there. These guys are hiding over there. Here's the bunker down there.

Here's some of the and, like, get the story. So I went originally because my

grandfather fought in Rabaul in New Britain, which is just off the coast of New

Guinea in World War 2. And I wanted to go back and he was alive

then. I wanted to go back and retrace his footsteps and understand what it was

like. And he gave me a poppies. He'd lay this on my mate's grave. Like,

he never left there. He died next to life. He did. And I'm like, yeah.

I'll do that for you. No worries. And I went there, and I bawl my

eyes out. Like, it was so emotional. Then you go there, and you're like you

understand you're standing in the jungle and you go, like, it's hot and it was

hard work and that and you're like, no one's trying to kill me. Like, I'm

here with a packed lunch. And these guys were getting shot at

and, like, just try literally running for their very lives. And it resets

a lot of perspective. So I went and did it. The first time I did

it, I had a porter because I was rubbish, and I just, you know, full

nerd mode. Couldn't do it. And I went back I finished it. I went back

10 years later, carried my pack, took a bunch of mates, said, trust me. If

I can do it, you can do it. Let's go have a great time, and

had a really different experience. So if you're gonna go with that

perspective of, you know, we're not going there to see the PR on the number

of bintang we put away. We actually wanna go and experience it

and understand that. Go with the company. Go with the tour guide who'll give

you some historical perspective. It'll be hard. Don't worry. You'll still get the

hard the the difficulty of the terrain and the heat and all that kind of

stuff. Carry your own gear. Carry your own gear. Go and really be present and

enjoy it. Yeah. And you'll come back a different person. I I could guarantee it.

Absolutely. Awesome. That's a code of spirit. Is that the one?

Yeah. Look. I I went with them twice. Like, can get there's a heap of

them. I'm just, you know, I'm not sponsored. I just these guys are great. I

love them. I've been with them twice. Yes. That was years ago now. I'm sure

they're still around. But go with someone who has and you can go with a

bunch of different people, but look for someone who has, some capacity to give

you local knowledge and historical knowledge particularly is really

good. So if you can get, a guide who will give you some historical

context, you don't just wanna walk. It. You wanna understand what happened.

Stories and then feel it. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. You really do. You wanna go

there and and just spend some time sitting there alone quietly and go, can you

imagine being here, you know, in the conditions they were in

and going through this, and people are trying to kill you at the same

time? Like, you know, you're going, I'm not gonna get home. And that, I think,

just like you said, it's that perspective, that resetting of your whole

understanding of shit. Life's pretty good. Like,

you come home and go, I was complaining about that the other day.

Like, are you serious? What was I complaining about? Like, you just you come back

a different person, and you you can never go back to the person you were

before. Yeah. What was that? Good thing. What was the,

the hike you said you did in Nepal that sort of changed your life?

I did a really basic trek in Nepal. Like, I went and did,

did a really basic one, which was neither here nor there. Then I went back

and went, oh, what's what's next? What do I do next? Could I climb a

mountain? Oh, I kinda know. So I signed up to climb a thing called Meropeak.

So it's the like, they call it a mountain. The Nepalese are like, it's

a small hill. No one's calling it a mountain.

It's still 6000 meters above sea level at the summer, but it's a trekking

hill. Like, you can climb the whole thing, and on the very last day, you

might put on crampons and ice axe and boots, and that's it. And it's pretty

low it's very low key. It's hard yards, but it's low key.

But I did that and came home and went, oh, that was like, we're over

there for 4, 5 weeks, living in a tent, climbing, just

trekking through all the you know, it's a long trek in, Do the climb. It's

a long trek out. And came back and went, that was unbelievable. Like,

what an experience to see that whole process of what a

mountaineering expedition looks like, even though it was, you know, super basic.

What what what's next? What would be one rung up the

ladder from that? And then I went and did that. And then I went, I

wanted to do something bigger. What would I need to do? Well, you should probably

get some skills. So I went to New Zealand, did a course on, you know,

mountain rescue, crevasse rescue, you know, how to operate in the in those

kind of environments. And then I went and climbed Kilimanjaro in

Africa, which is not hard. The toughest part of that is, in fact, you

get to camps. There's, like, 2 drop toilets for 500 people. That's not

hard. But did the climb, and, like, that was that was

great. And I go, what's next? And this tick tick tick. And the

next thing you know, I was climbing a I was I was catching a flight

out of South America on a Russian military cargo plane to go to the

Antarctic to climb in Antarctica for a season. And just literally went with a bunch

of guys and a guide, a professional. And we were living in a tent. It

was minus 40, and we just went bagging peaks, and we climbed the highest peak

in the sat on the Antarctic continent. And we were just living in a

tent and just climbing stuff that people had probably never stood stepped foot on,

like, just insane things like that. And this was way back in the day. There

were no fixed ropes. Like, you you carried your own gear. Like, you had

40 to 60 kilos of gear per person. You had to figure out how to

drag or carry. But we just went out and did stuff. And

all of a sudden, you're like, wow. We got to here. Shit. You know? That's

cool. That's it. Just be a verb. Do stuff. Be a human. Go do stuff

and see what happens. And you I love that. Even know what doors it opens.

Like, you do that, and that opens the door to the next scene. You go,

what's in that room? I don't know. You just walk through and you find out,

and then that opens another door. And the the map just keeps getting bigger and

bigger and bigger of what you're capable of doing. Mhmm. And then it's

like, well, what do you wanna do? I know. Obviously obviously, Paul,

that's before kids. And, I've recently well, couple of pods ago,

I shared, like, certain things that I know we spoke about this. I wanted to

change in my life because I was selfish. Obviously,

doing a keynote or traveling onto a stage for me, and I know you do

that now, it's not very dangerous. No. How how has things changed for

you, like, since having kids? Because I know you put, like

and that's where it really resonated with me. I I know I spoke with Jack

about why I wanted to do things. But when I spoke to you and you

put all your not your life on hold, but you put your speaking career and

things on hold to be a stay at home dad and, you know, put your

family first, That really resonated with me. But how have you

changed your I don't know. The risks you take with these

races and adventure because as you said earlier, you know, it's not just

you anymore. Like, is that really a big part of everything you do now and

the decisions you make? Yeah. So probably 2 things come out of that. The

first is, I deal like these races sound horrific like, you know,

8 days solo in the Arctic crossing all kinds of crazy stuff. The

likelihood of you dying is quite low. Like it sounds really amazing and the photos

like, oh my god. But in reality, even if she went

really wrong, the the worst case scenario is you you're

gonna get some frostbite, you might lose fingers or toes. Like,

the the degree to which stuff would have to go wrong, like, you're talking crossing

a lake, ice cracks, your full submersion, like, that's

like, you'd still probably be okay. Like, this the the risk of you dying is

quite low. Mountaineering, like, I'd reached a point where I was on mountains where people

were dying. Like, we were on big, big mountains. I remember I was

leading a team, so I wasn't the guide. The guide was at the back, but

I was at the front of the rope team. So you're tied in teams of

3 or 4. The theory being that if one of you falls in a

crevasse or down the mountain, the other 3 will be able to arrest and stop

and bring you back up. And we were coming down, and I missed a bolt

where you could clip in the rope and kind of feed through. I just missed

it. It was covered in snow. Like, we're on the descent. We're exhausted.

And the guide got to that bolt and shout out and stopped the entire team.

They're like, you've missed that bolt. If one of us slips in the next, like,

30 seconds while I'm hooking in, we're all going for a 3,000 foot slide

down the Peter's Glacier, and no one's going home. So, you know,

wait. Live. Right. Okay. So, like, that's the discipline of

tiny decisions as you go. So then you have kids, and like I said, you

can't keep going all in with all the chips on every hand when you got

kids because you've still got your hat, but you got the dad hat now and

the partner hat, and you're still like, I'm still a son. Like, my parents are

alive. I've got a brother. Like, you've got responsibilities to other people. You wanna live

your life, but you've got responsibilities, and and you've got to

respect those relationships. So I I hung the boots up and went, okay. Well,

I'm still me. What can I do that scratches that itch but respects

those relationships? And that led me to to Arctic Ultra Racing and those kind of

things. And getting back to the conversation you and I had, which I really wish

we'd had more time to talk about of how we juggle the work that we

do, like the, you know, the 9 to 5 stuff of keynoting and going around

juggling kids. Like, it's really, really hard. Like, I've had, you're

you're never home, man. I see your Instagram. You're at a local place. Like, you're

just like, dude, do you home? Like and I get it. Like, I've I've had

last 4 weeks, I've had 8 conferences in court, like, 8 flights and

driven all of it, and it's just madness. You're trying to juggle those things.

But getting back to when you are home to be present as much as you

can and contribute as much as you can and have some normality there,

and like getting back to that thing where you said of stopping my career for

a period of time. Like, in that discussion, we talked about choosing your

regret. So when we had kids like, my wife

loves her career. She's very passionate. She's a school principal,

and it's a case of going well. I had a choice of going. I could

keep my career motoring and regret not having extra time with

my kids, or I can have extra time with my kids and

regret not having my career motoring. So every decision has regret.

Doesn't matter what you choose. So what regret do I wanna bear?

I'd rather bear I'd rather get old and go, well, your career

wasn't as great as you wanted it to be, but you got 5 years of

being a stay at home dad with your boys. Easy choice. Done.

So you put the career on handbrake, and I stayed at home with the

kids from when they were young until they're both at school now. And now I'm

still primary, like, I still do the pickups and the drop offs and pack the

lunches and do the sport runs and that kind of stuff. And I'll start to

integrate more of my keynoting in because they're both at school now. It's

a bit easier. My parents are in Melbourne, so they're 3 hours away. But my

wife's parents are here. They've just recently retired. So you've got a little bit of

flexibility in the system, and you can kind of start to expand out

some of the things you wanna do a little bit more. But it's that thing

of what regret do you want? Because Is you gonna have one of them either

way? I'd rather regret this and not that. Then cool. Make that decision and go

and live with that regret of that choice because the flip of that choice was

fantastic. And I don't do expeditions every year. I'm not running for the arctic

every year. Maybe every 3 years, I'm doing something insane, because

it's enough. It scratches the itch, but it respects everybody

else. Yeah. But it respects everybody else, because like like I said with Daryl, like,

I get to take the cool photos of me and under the northern lights. But

while I'm taking that photo, there's all these people at home who aren't taking cool

photos, because they're doing the boring shit of getting the kids to school, and cooking

dinners, and making sure that the dog's fine, and the cows are fine, and the

chickens are fine. They're doing all the stuff that I would normally do, so I

can go off and do my thing. Like, you've gotta respect that and remember

that that sacrifice is going on in the background, and they're not

posting cool photos of that on the Gram. Like, they're just grinding it out and

getting it done. So you gotta you gotta balance it up, and that's a that's

a that's an everyday thing. I think that's yeah. That that

and that conversation really did help me. Like, and that's where I've

yeah. I've decided I've canceled all international trips the rest of the year

just because of, like, exactly what you said there that it might look

cool that you're doing these things, but at what cost? And who's that

affecting? And Choose your regret. You do. Yeah. And I I love that choose your

regrets. So, I'm aware of the time, and Jacko's a busy man. He's got another

podcast. He probably got a couple more or He's a busy lad, isn't he? Busy

lad. Good luck at Ruessapal. They all want a piece of run. Like, he's got

a lot going on. He's gotta get re he's gotta go do his Kikoda research.

That's it. Lockdown there. Well, hey, mate. It's Tuesday. Drop me a line if you

want. If you ever got any questions about Kocato or gear or whatever you're doing,

just reach out, mate, anytime. More than happy to to, point you

in the right direction or whatever and, Thank you very much. I actually had Kilimanjaro

booked during COVID too. Had 11 an 11 day trek over there

and missed it. So you're on last you might be a good little contact for

me, Paul. Yeah, mate. Anytime. Yeah. I I love helping people out with that kind

of stuff and seeing them go do things and Awesome. Because you get to live

vicariously through some of the stuff that they're doing as well, which is which is

awesome. Yeah. Now for people listening along, obviously, you do do keynotes all around

the world. And I can I'll be brutally honest. I hear a lot of people

talk at conferences and things, and you sit through them and

politely sit through them. And I'll say to everyone, but and a lot of I

find if something's not engaging, I don't find it interesting, and you were

extremely engaging. I think we had great conversations, and I really appreciate you

coming on here. So if people wanna get your books, look, watch your Ted talk,

book you for a keynote, where do we go, Paul? Yeah. Just

paulwotkins.com.au. That's the easiest way to go. That's my website, and you can

find everything from there. You'll find me on LinkedIn a fair bit, but that

website will will point you in all direction of, you know, books, TEDx, if you

wanna book me, wanna have a chat, do whatever, get some background, do a lot

of writings. There's a lot of writing up there as well. And then, yeah, we

go from there. Like, you there's no middle man. Come talk to me, and let's

talk about what we can do. You love that. What about our last our

final our final quick Jack. I'd love to hear from Paul. Yeah.

We like to ask for our guest this, Paul. Yeah. No. No.

It's a good one. Don't worry. No. What are you

most most proud of? You've obviously had a pretty incredible life. You've done a

whole lot of crazy things that, you know, 99% of the

population will never experience. What

what what are you most proud of, yeah, in your

life? Well, I'm gonna tell you a story. I'm gonna take 2 minutes of your

time and tell you a story. I I was talking about I was at a

conference during the week, and this question came up, and we were talking about it.

So my kids are 6 and 8. So Campbell, our eldest, he's nearly 9. And

you often want people go, oh, what do your kids think of all this stuff

you're doing? Like, well, they're quite young in terms of understanding what I do and

that kind of stuff. And you often wonder, like, what are they thinking? Like, what

do they understand about what dad does or what you do and the things you've

done? I was driving the kids to school. This is a few weeks ago.

And he he loves Pokemon. So we're talking about Pokemon. So he's just rattling and,

like, knows everything about them. He's rattling off this Pokemon, that Pokemon, this

Pokemon, and smack bang in the middle of that conversation. He's like, oh, and

this Pokemon does that, and then this Pokemon does that. And, dad, those races you

did, are you really proud of those? Stop.

You're like, holy shit. You have no idea what's been just rolling around in the

back of their heads. Like, he's like, those big races, dad, are you proud of

those? Out of nowhere. And I'm just driving the car. And I thought about it

for a second. I said, I'm really proud of the work

I did so that I could go do those things.

And that was it. And I it was just I hadn't thought of like, it

wasn't a deep you know, didn't go full deep back chopper on it. It was

just like, when I thought about it, like, in the moment, I just went, I'm

just really proud of the work I did. Like, I worked really, really hard so

that I can go do those things now. So if someone said to me tomorrow,

do you wanna go run a 100 miles on the weekend at this race? Sure.

Let's go. I I can go do any of the do you wanna go climb

Everest? Yeah. Sure. I can go to that. Like, you can do whatever. So

I wanted them to understand that you can be proud of the

work you do, and the outcomes are relevant. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

That's life. I'm just proud that I work. I've got a big body of work

behind me, and I think that's, that's my best answer I could give. And my

kids taught me that. I love that Mitch, Mitch, and I are doing our Saturday

morning runs. We've sort of got the marathon is like, you know, the beacon that

we're working towards, but our motto is sort of enjoy the journey, you know,

enjoy the journey. That's what it's really about. It's not about the marathon

and what time we run. It's about every Saturday morning, we we're going out there

and we're doing a big run together and we're catching up. So it's sort of,

you know, it's that, that resonates a lot. So thank you very much.

Training. Yeah. The journey is the training, and the race is the celebration of the

work that you've done. So then the race becomes an entirely different experience.

It's not high pressure, like you wanna perform. But when you think of it

as I'm here to celebrate how bloody hard I've worked for those

months, you have a different experience. Yeah. What, what did

Campbell say back in between Pokemon chat when you gave out the response?

Yeah. Cool, man. Go back to Pokemon. But it's a great story.

Poignettes. Pignettes. Nothing. And so kids

are so good for you. Like, they just take your ego and be like, yeah.

Yeah. Big time. Oh, Paul, mate. Thanks so much

for, your time being on the show and Oh, my pleasure, mate. Sounds like

you're gonna help Jack out of his expeditions and things. But, personally, for

me, you know, I was just going to Warrnambool to do a keynote. I didn't

even know those other speakers. And sometimes when you just roll in those situations, you

get more than what you gave. And that's why I wanted to have you on

the show because and acknowledge you because that conversation, I

just needed to have, but I didn't know who to have it with or when

it was gonna happen, and you're the person for that. So, on a personal

level, mate, thanks so much. And, yeah, mate, Chip's stories are amazing. So

really appreciate it. Cheers, man. That conversation's not over, mate. We're gonna keep right. You're

talking like it's over. Well No. No. No. No. No. You you will probably return

the favor. You never know when you return the favor and say something like, yeah.

I needed that. I needed that. That's that's what it's for. I keep the

convos going. It's not on. Thanks, people.

Cuss, lads.